Frank, are you serious or not? 
The PCC07 mod *does* have the engine in the back. I seem to recall it also has the centre of gravity some 10cm too low and of course questionable tire curves.
Above that though, bumps in ISI sims are silly sine wave based which, at best, very poorly simulates about 10% of the real life bumps and for the other 90%, its rubbish.
And probably above that; the tires probably don't get close to the maximum achievable in rFactor, and sadly this maximum achievable isn't all *that* good to start with..
The PCC07 mod *does* have the engine in the back. I seem to recall it also has the centre of gravity some 10cm too low and of course questionable tire curves.
Above that though, bumps in ISI sims are silly sine wave based which, at best, very poorly simulates about 10% of the real life bumps and for the other 90%, its rubbish.
And probably above that; the tires probably don't get close to the maximum achievable in rFactor, and sadly this maximum achievable isn't all *that* good to start with..
I would go further and say that 'fair' amounts of drop off after the peak in the base curves could still result in a controllable car; wrong force combining is probably worse than a curve that drops a bit too much.
Chris, this is hard work, its tricky stuff that can't be explained easily.
There are a few rFactor mods that aparantly have had real driver input. The result was somewhere between Mars and Pluto physics. But it felt right.. Real drivers, most of them, don't know what they really feel. Is it peak slip occuring really fast or grip dropping really fast after the peak? Most drivers are poor engineers. The better drivers with an interest in physics have probably read books wich showed them curves made up by drivers in the past, so they adopt this as well..
Cars are bits of metal and rubber, its all measurable and able to model decently on a modern computer.
When you let 5 different Porsche Supercup drivers 'tune' the physics of a car in a game, you'll probably end up with 5 very different ones, with at least one having the engine in the front.. (this actually happened..).
Feel is not the way, decent physics models and real (proven) data is!
Chris, this is hard work, its tricky stuff that can't be explained easily.
There are a few rFactor mods that aparantly have had real driver input. The result was somewhere between Mars and Pluto physics. But it felt right.. Real drivers, most of them, don't know what they really feel. Is it peak slip occuring really fast or grip dropping really fast after the peak? Most drivers are poor engineers. The better drivers with an interest in physics have probably read books wich showed them curves made up by drivers in the past, so they adopt this as well..
Cars are bits of metal and rubber, its all measurable and able to model decently on a modern computer.
When you let 5 different Porsche Supercup drivers 'tune' the physics of a car in a game, you'll probably end up with 5 very different ones, with at least one having the engine in the front.. (this actually happened..).
Feel is not the way, decent physics models and real (proven) data is!
Wow thats not even ultra obvious from their site.. I think 35 dollars if I recall..
You can't officially play 'mods' on the demo afaik...
Android, how you do your wizzardy to get these things out of LFS is a mystery to me, but if anything, keep going!
These curves aren't new however, they've been available for ages (since 2004 iirc) online: http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt2.htm . They look a bit text-book-y but they do probably give a good indication of the phenomenom (sp) of force combining, not that I really have any clue as to why this happens this way.
These curves aren't new however, they've been available for ages (since 2004 iirc) online: http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt2.htm . They look a bit text-book-y but they do probably give a good indication of the phenomenom (sp) of force combining, not that I really have any clue as to why this happens this way.
The irony! In one of these videos you see lots of tricky cars to drive, rear wheel drive, light weight, and who decides to spin out on his own? a 4wd evo! lol!
Even Clarkson finds it hard to crash in one of these..
Even Clarkson finds it hard to crash in one of these..
Oh it had nothing to do with being able (or not able) to use the 900 degree mode; with LFS's somewhat ''sluggish'' feel it seems to work well enough.
The point was to see if there are any differences in how 'stable' and 'quick' the FF is in 300, 600 and 900 modes. When the sim is kept the same, it will *desire* the same thing from the wheel in these three wheel settings, so if different things happen, the wheel must be the cause.
The point was to see if there are any differences in how 'stable' and 'quick' the FF is in 300, 600 and 900 modes. When the sim is kept the same, it will *desire* the same thing from the wheel in these three wheel settings, so if different things happen, the wheel must be the cause.
I never really tried to ''drift'' in rFactor but here is a short and somehwat shakey (I have to learn how to do it with a bit more confidence for one..) But somewhat contrary to how it looks, its quite progressive and easy..
GTL is quite dissapointing as it highlights certain issues in the rFactor physics, plus they really didn't use that good data either. Some of those cars would be a pure joy to drive but you'll hate their guts in GTL..
hahaha, there is only so much I can do 
I've been making a .. crazy version of the corvette, stiffer, 650hp and up to 36 degrees of steering lock.
The main thing rFactor doesn't do is proper tire force combining. LFS also doesn't do this very well, but 'differently wrongish' most likely. Thats probably where the main differences come from.
When I use tires in rFactor that behave fairly realistically under combined circumstances, its very driftable and believable. But then in a straight line, longitudinal grip is a little odd and the car is a bit floaty..
I hope to do a video later as this is the first time I did some proper ''drifting'', with fair repeatability.. Drifting as in oversteer in, out and inbetween corners instead of the powersliding i used to do..
The main thing rFactor doesn't do is proper tire force combining. LFS also doesn't do this very well, but 'differently wrongish' most likely. Thats probably where the main differences come from.
When I use tires in rFactor that behave fairly realistically under combined circumstances, its very driftable and believable. But then in a straight line, longitudinal grip is a little odd and the car is a bit floaty..
I hope to do a video later as this is the first time I did some proper ''drifting'', with fair repeatability.. Drifting as in oversteer in, out and inbetween corners instead of the powersliding i used to do..
You'll have to install the RealFeel plugin which takes the FF from the actual forces on the steering rack. Its available at www.rfactorcentral.com.
Then you must tweak it a bit in order to match the force strength with the car you're driving, much like in LFS where steering feels heavier or lighter depending on car and caster etc etc.
In the reafleel.ini file, the Chevrolet section (will exist once you've installed realfeel and ran the corvette once) you can change this:
max force: 7000
damper: 11500
And somewhere high in the ini file, the main settings, set smoothing to 0 or 1 if you have a G25..
In game you want to set the force feedback to 'low' which leaves out all the vibration nonsense..
The corvette has upgrades available in game, one of which is a setting that turns the ISI force feedback strength to zero. If you install that and run RealFeel, all the FF you're feeling comes straight from the physics.
Then you must tweak it a bit in order to match the force strength with the car you're driving, much like in LFS where steering feels heavier or lighter depending on car and caster etc etc.
In the reafleel.ini file, the Chevrolet section (will exist once you've installed realfeel and ran the corvette once) you can change this:
max force: 7000
damper: 11500
And somewhere high in the ini file, the main settings, set smoothing to 0 or 1 if you have a G25..
In game you want to set the force feedback to 'low' which leaves out all the vibration nonsense..
The corvette has upgrades available in game, one of which is a setting that turns the ISI force feedback strength to zero. If you install that and run RealFeel, all the FF you're feeling comes straight from the physics.
Wouldn't the whole attitude and handling change, making it relatively pointless to try and compensate the springs for the stiffer or softer tires? I bet the tires themselves make a lot more difference. I bet you could find the whole understeer/oversteer balance to be different, plus of course you'd have to get used to the newness of it all..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56qWbAYXEyo
i think around 700HP there.. And the G25 (600 degs).. :-)
i think around 700HP there.. And the G25 (600 degs).. :-)
The game settings are exactly the same; all I varied was the logitech profiler steering lock. Nothing was changed in the game, just the wheel having either 900, 600 or 300 degrees of turning to try and do.
Atle, I measured full left to full right, with a microphone.. (its a bit noisy 
) and that was 1.5 seconds; which is 1.66 revolutions per second. Its unlikely that I have a 'slow g25' I think; you'd say production quality will be pretty equal from wheel to wheel..
Wheel turn compensation, I think, is some sort of non linearity in the steering. I wanted to keep the sims setup exactly the same and only change the range of the Logitech.
What should have happened was 900, 600 and 300 giving exactly the same results. The same thing is being done to the cars, the sim wants the same thing from the wheel... What exactly happens is less important to the fact that there are *big* differences. This is proof of the wheel not being up to what the sim asks from it.
) and that was 1.5 seconds; which is 1.66 revolutions per second. Its unlikely that I have a 'slow g25' I think; you'd say production quality will be pretty equal from wheel to wheel..Wheel turn compensation, I think, is some sort of non linearity in the steering. I wanted to keep the sims setup exactly the same and only change the range of the Logitech.
What should have happened was 900, 600 and 300 giving exactly the same results. The same thing is being done to the cars, the sim wants the same thing from the wheel... What exactly happens is less important to the fact that there are *big* differences. This is proof of the wheel not being up to what the sim asks from it.
Bought a G25, made a video analyzing the wheel in rFactor and LFS. (review ish)
Yes,
I was known as the ISI hater, but I converted, ish. At least there was more possible than I thought; even though its not perfect.
I was also a big hater of force feedback. I still am ish. But much like the ISI story, I now went out and bought a G25 to see what it is made off.
I never liked force feedback because:
- wheels of dodgy build quality
- lots of internal resistance, can't turn quickly if you want it
- big gearing meaning it can't turn fast by itself either
- gears give notchy feel
- jittery unstable jerking forces
- low fidelity, not many distinguishable levels (steps) of force
The G25 is better in most areas, quality is good, internal resistance is much lower, spikes and stability are a lot nicer and it has a higher turning speed. But is it good enough?
What should FF be for me?
I only really want force feedback if its going to help me. In most cars, the suspension geometry and tire alligning torque mean that the front tires will want to keep rolling in the direction the car is moving. So when the back steps out, the tires keep pointing ahead and the wheel turns by itself. It also should straighten once a slide comes back and goes straight. Force feedback should be a driving aid that helps you keeping the car on the road at extreme conditions.
Force feedback should also give some fidelity of information regarding what is happening. Steering should be heavier when the car is pushed down on the road by road camber or track undulations. Steering should get lighter or heavier depending on suspension geometry and slip angle etc etc.. For this you would need a fair amount of 'dynamic range'; you should be able to feel small forces and large forces.
See the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgQm_fITok
The only thing I change is the rotation angle used in the logitech driver.
Here's the deal:
I bring the car in an oversteer situation and let go of the steering, then see how the wheel and game fight it out. Ideally you'd see that the front tires are kept in the direction the car is going, so it should straighten out. Or at least, a big nod in that direction. Then I do a donut, and see if it gets out of it by itself or not, in general taking notice of what happens.
900 mode
At 900 degrees in both LFS and rFactor you can see the car spins out every time I let go of the wheel. You can see it *tries* to keep the tires rolling in the right direction but it can't keep up and the car spins out. Doing donuts, the same happens, both sims just stay spinning unless you really go easy on the throttle.
600 mode
Here you can see, especially in rFactor, that its closer. Yet still in both sims there is not a quick enough response and the car is out of control most of the time. It sill does not respond and the game is held back by the slow wheel.
300 mode
Again the similarity between sims is great: Now the wheel is fast enough! It keeps the front tires aiming where they should and now, when the first slide is anything smaller than a spin out, it willl catch the following ones until the car goes straight! Thats what I'm talking about! Donuts too, it easily straightens out and drives off. Now, when I let go of the wheel I can trust it will do what it is supposed to do; trying to keep the tires pointed in the direction the car is going.
Summary of modes..
At 600 and 900, the problem is that even though you let go of the wheel, there is still an unrealistic amount of ''friction'' and slowness. What happens when you let go is simply NOT what the sim wants to happen! Its a bigger handicap than it is an aid then! At 300 it works, but of course 300 is often 780 degrees less than these road cars would use in real life. It does however proof that the sims and software are ok, but that the hardware seems to be lacking still.
What about this fidelity and dynamic range thing?
How many steps of force feedback do you feel? In ISI, the default is 11500. In LFS I think 128, which can be increased to 256. HOWEVER!! that does NOT mean your wheel copies these fine steps. I wish I had a spare loadcell laying around so I could measure the actual fidelity of the wheel, which I will now do by feel. Wheel electronics, transmission 'drag' and resistance, these things compromise how many fine steps are actually left over at your fingertips. Using a force 'test' program, I can drag a slider per pixel each way and every pixel it moves a greater force is outputted to the wheel.
Now my hands can't measure 11500 or 128 steps of force. However, when slooowly moving this slider and keeping the wheel in one hand, I distinghuished 6 big steps of force.. six.. Most likely 'notches' where the cogwheels went to the next teeth. I'm not saying there are only 6 steps of force feedback. However, when there is a notchy feel, one tends to only feel these notches and eventual small steps in between these notches don't really register. I tried rFactor at a fidelity of 8 instead of 11500 and the experience was mostly the same.
So even the G25 is still very notchy and does NOT give this dynamic range of smooth FF that comes in plenty of small steps.
So I still dislike it?
Yes.. but at 300 degrees, for the first time ever, I actually saw that force feedback can work, which is quite a feat!
I was known as the ISI hater, but I converted, ish. At least there was more possible than I thought; even though its not perfect.
I was also a big hater of force feedback. I still am ish. But much like the ISI story, I now went out and bought a G25 to see what it is made off.
I never liked force feedback because:
- wheels of dodgy build quality
- lots of internal resistance, can't turn quickly if you want it
- big gearing meaning it can't turn fast by itself either
- gears give notchy feel
- jittery unstable jerking forces
- low fidelity, not many distinguishable levels (steps) of force
The G25 is better in most areas, quality is good, internal resistance is much lower, spikes and stability are a lot nicer and it has a higher turning speed. But is it good enough?
What should FF be for me?
I only really want force feedback if its going to help me. In most cars, the suspension geometry and tire alligning torque mean that the front tires will want to keep rolling in the direction the car is moving. So when the back steps out, the tires keep pointing ahead and the wheel turns by itself. It also should straighten once a slide comes back and goes straight. Force feedback should be a driving aid that helps you keeping the car on the road at extreme conditions.
Force feedback should also give some fidelity of information regarding what is happening. Steering should be heavier when the car is pushed down on the road by road camber or track undulations. Steering should get lighter or heavier depending on suspension geometry and slip angle etc etc.. For this you would need a fair amount of 'dynamic range'; you should be able to feel small forces and large forces.
See the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgQm_fITok
The only thing I change is the rotation angle used in the logitech driver.
Here's the deal:
I bring the car in an oversteer situation and let go of the steering, then see how the wheel and game fight it out. Ideally you'd see that the front tires are kept in the direction the car is going, so it should straighten out. Or at least, a big nod in that direction. Then I do a donut, and see if it gets out of it by itself or not, in general taking notice of what happens.
900 mode
At 900 degrees in both LFS and rFactor you can see the car spins out every time I let go of the wheel. You can see it *tries* to keep the tires rolling in the right direction but it can't keep up and the car spins out. Doing donuts, the same happens, both sims just stay spinning unless you really go easy on the throttle.
600 mode
Here you can see, especially in rFactor, that its closer. Yet still in both sims there is not a quick enough response and the car is out of control most of the time. It sill does not respond and the game is held back by the slow wheel.
300 mode
Again the similarity between sims is great: Now the wheel is fast enough! It keeps the front tires aiming where they should and now, when the first slide is anything smaller than a spin out, it willl catch the following ones until the car goes straight! Thats what I'm talking about! Donuts too, it easily straightens out and drives off. Now, when I let go of the wheel I can trust it will do what it is supposed to do; trying to keep the tires pointed in the direction the car is going.
Summary of modes..
At 600 and 900, the problem is that even though you let go of the wheel, there is still an unrealistic amount of ''friction'' and slowness. What happens when you let go is simply NOT what the sim wants to happen! Its a bigger handicap than it is an aid then! At 300 it works, but of course 300 is often 780 degrees less than these road cars would use in real life. It does however proof that the sims and software are ok, but that the hardware seems to be lacking still.
What about this fidelity and dynamic range thing?
How many steps of force feedback do you feel? In ISI, the default is 11500. In LFS I think 128, which can be increased to 256. HOWEVER!! that does NOT mean your wheel copies these fine steps. I wish I had a spare loadcell laying around so I could measure the actual fidelity of the wheel, which I will now do by feel. Wheel electronics, transmission 'drag' and resistance, these things compromise how many fine steps are actually left over at your fingertips. Using a force 'test' program, I can drag a slider per pixel each way and every pixel it moves a greater force is outputted to the wheel.
Now my hands can't measure 11500 or 128 steps of force. However, when slooowly moving this slider and keeping the wheel in one hand, I distinghuished 6 big steps of force.. six.. Most likely 'notches' where the cogwheels went to the next teeth. I'm not saying there are only 6 steps of force feedback. However, when there is a notchy feel, one tends to only feel these notches and eventual small steps in between these notches don't really register. I tried rFactor at a fidelity of 8 instead of 11500 and the experience was mostly the same.
So even the G25 is still very notchy and does NOT give this dynamic range of smooth FF that comes in plenty of small steps.
So I still dislike it?
Yes.. but at 300 degrees, for the first time ever, I actually saw that force feedback can work, which is quite a feat!
If you're ever in the Netherlands, you're welcome to try mine
BTW first G25 impressions: uh oh.... (more later)
decent:
- well built (solid wheel feel / no bearing play, fixes securely)
- ok but slightly slippery wheel decent though
- still a grinding gears type feel but a lot smoother than the DFP
- also a lot less resistance compared to a dfp, you can actually turn it quickly..
- it is super value, just over 200 euro for all this decently build kit is astonishing.
poor:
- slow.. still much too slow. It is playing catch-up to the sim even at 720 degrees. Sure its early days after just an hour of driving but bah.. a bit worse than expected (I didn't expect greatness)
- delayed, partly because of the slowness..
- low res: holding the wheel in one position i couldn't feel a difference between 85% and 70% ff being sent to the wheel..
horrible:
- shifter! eek! close the windows, a gust of wind might make it select a random gear.. much too light and tacky.
BTW first G25 impressions: uh oh.... (more later)
decent:
- well built (solid wheel feel / no bearing play, fixes securely)
- ok but slightly slippery wheel decent though
- still a grinding gears type feel but a lot smoother than the DFP
- also a lot less resistance compared to a dfp, you can actually turn it quickly..
- it is super value, just over 200 euro for all this decently build kit is astonishing.
poor:
- slow.. still much too slow. It is playing catch-up to the sim even at 720 degrees. Sure its early days after just an hour of driving but bah.. a bit worse than expected (I didn't expect greatness)
- delayed, partly because of the slowness..
- low res: holding the wheel in one position i couldn't feel a difference between 85% and 70% ff being sent to the wheel..
horrible:
- shifter! eek! close the windows, a gust of wind might make it select a random gear.. much too light and tacky.
Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, .
I think those are the 'revzalot' pedals. Well together with Todd (TCannon) they are the only loadcell based pedals you can buy sofar.
I think I like TCannons pedals more based on how they look, even though you will reach the 30kg loadcell max a bit earlier with these pedals (leverage).
The good thing about using a loadcell is that it registers force. You can then tweak the 'feel' of the pedal by installing any comination of springs/rubbers/dampers you wish, the pedal response will be force sensitive regardless of the force vs travel graph.
I wouldn't use a 'heavyish' spring though, which Revzalot does seem to do. I use a piece of special damping foam (pretty hard) to get a nice progressive 2cm of brake travel at ~40kg that doesn't ''spring back up''..
If you get Leo Bodnars USB controller and buy / have a collumn drill (50 euro gets you one these days!) you can pretty easily make some decent pedals yourself, if you're into that kind of thing
I think I like TCannons pedals more based on how they look, even though you will reach the 30kg loadcell max a bit earlier with these pedals (leverage).
The good thing about using a loadcell is that it registers force. You can then tweak the 'feel' of the pedal by installing any comination of springs/rubbers/dampers you wish, the pedal response will be force sensitive regardless of the force vs travel graph.
I wouldn't use a 'heavyish' spring though, which Revzalot does seem to do. I use a piece of special damping foam (pretty hard) to get a nice progressive 2cm of brake travel at ~40kg that doesn't ''spring back up''..
If you get Leo Bodnars USB controller and buy / have a collumn drill (50 euro gets you one these days!) you can pretty easily make some decent pedals yourself, if you're into that kind of thing
I'll take the plunge.. And indeed I already have much better DIY pedals and H shifter so those will stay in the box.. Fingers crossed!
What sort of problems where those?
Homemade ball bearing really smooth really no resistance or springs or bungees at all wheel hooked up to a silly 4096 steps per revolution (shaft mounted, zero play ) encoder. Works but is a bit lifeless..
I just hope the G25 is smooth enough and has little resistance when the sim tells it to have little resistance. (you know how I rant against the DFP for example..)
There are a few simracers in town so if I dislike it, I can probably sell it on a at a 50 euro loss..
) encoder. Works but is a bit lifeless..I just hope the G25 is smooth enough and has little resistance when the sim tells it to have little resistance. (you know how I rant against the DFP for example..)
There are a few simracers in town so if I dislike it, I can probably sell it on a at a 50 euro loss..
I might go totally crazy and buy one to see what the fuss is about then.. thanks..
thanks..G25, Does the wheel work stand alone without the pedals / shifter attached?
What more is there to say..
Logitech G25, Does the wheel work stand alone without the pedals / shifter attached? I'll be NOT using them and wouldn't want to have em connected all the time..
ta,
N
Logitech G25, Does the wheel work stand alone without the pedals / shifter attached? I'll be NOT using them and wouldn't want to have em connected all the time..
ta,
N
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